Okay. Howdy, Saroin420! I'll answer your abortion questions here.

"What if somebody got raped and got impregnated with the rapist's unwanted child?" Very important question. So who says this child is unwanted? Don't be so short-sighted. Allow me to explain. The issue of whether the woman was violated is separate and apart from the impregnated issue. Let's just get that straight right off the bat. What if we looked at it like this: Wouldn't it be the ultimate slap in the face to the rapist, who intended the rape to be traumatizing on all sides, if the victim decided to bring the baby to term and give it to a childless couple who suffered so long by not being able to conceive? Out of the ashes rises a pheonix. So who says that baby is not wanted?

Your fetal alcohol scenario. Again, how short-sighted your skepticism makes you! This is why I'm glad I know Yahweh of the Bible. He can overcome any bad situation. How exciting to get the opportunity to watch and see how God will use this child to bless others. Will He heal the baby? Will the baby come out unaffected? What if the baby is handicapped? Have you ever worked with the handicapped before? They are a spirited bunch. I suggest you volunteer with Special Olympics before you cast a long shadow over the handicapped. Wouldn't want to look like you're discriminating, would you?

"Why would you even want a person to be born into a world where there is drugs, killings, overdosing and other extremely dangerous things?" Again, take your blinders off. There are so many wonderful things in this world to experience: Sunsets, swimming, baseball, The Olive Garden, sled riding, love, hugs & kisses, etc. So are you saying just b/c there is the potential for evil and failure that life isn't worth living?

Continuing on. I want to start with small segments b/c these things tend to get really big.

"How do you know a fetus can even feel anything when the nervous system hasn't even developed? This question isn't a fair one. It assumes b/c the nervous system in a fetus hasn't fully developed, then that automatically means it doesn't feel anything. But how can one assume that? When was the last time you asked a fetus if it felt anything? What if I said to you that perhaps b/c the fetus' nervous system isn't fully developed, that means it feels more than you and I do?

"Why would you want a baby to live when even the mother would know it would end up having a horrible life?" You place a lot of weight on the imperfect perception of a human being (the mother). You imply here that the mother is all-knowing. How can a human say w/any certainty that another individual is going to have a horrible life? Can one even see into the future regarding his/her own life? Poverty, disease and abuse. These things can make us better people in the long run. Are you trying to make marshmallows out of the human race? Strife builds character. Again, this makes me glad I have Yahweh. Like the Bible says, "All things work towards the good of those who love Him." That means even the bad stuff.

"What if the baby is the spawn of Satan?" You watch too many movies.

"Personally, I think it is wrong that you are even considering to stop abortions..." Your opinion. Again, in a relativistic society, why should your personal opinion have any bearing on anyone else? And who are you to set any kind of moral standard? Talking about 'things should be this way or that way'.

"Abortion as a life saver." What? Class, this is what we call an oxymoron. It kills a baby. It's not a life saver. As far as the save the mother excuse, this almost never happens. It's just an ill-thought out excuse by the pro-abortionist crowd. Typical of a selfish society. Any mother worth her salt would give her life for her child at any stage, not just when the child steps into the path of a fast-approaching car.

Billions of people argument. Saroin420, so are you saying it's a population control device or a more people = more corruption issue? Again, you're being short-sighted. Glad I'm a Christian and can trust God to reveal to us ways to feed and clothe the masses and fight corruption. As for the mother nature aspect: You're so quick to discount Yahweh of the Bible b/c you believe Him to be man-made; and yet you give credibility to a ficticious mother nature. Hmm...

"With more and more babies and to stop abortion is wrong." Not trying to be facetious; that's the way the sentence was written. But again, there you go trying to impress your personal views on others. So it's not okay for Christians to do it, but if you base your moral foundations on humans, then it's okay? But why should anyone abide by your human opinion? Remember, one human opinion is just as good as another's, relatively speaking.

"Personally, I'd rather have an abortion and adopt a child and give child that was potentially born into peverty a second chance." So are you saying you'd trash your own baby and then go adopt someone else's baby? Hmm...yeah, great role modeling there. What if you just wait until you're married and financially secure? Then you don't have to worry about all this nonsense.

"I hope you do realize once you are born, you start to die." How very fatalist of you. So I guess that means we should never live life, right? Never try anything or do anything b/c it means nothing in the end, right? Gee, Saroin420, I can't imagine why more people aren't flocking to follow your school of thought.

Stem cells. Never said I was against stem cell research. However, all the potential has been shown to be in adult stem cells. And now that we've had the scientific breakthrough where skin cells can be manipulated to act as stem cells, the embryonic stem cell issue is obsolete.

Your friend w/cancer and how her sickness tears you apart. So why should it tear you apart? You just said life is pointless b/c when you are born you start to die. Go tell all that to your sick friend. What do you mean you're not going to? Are you de facto saying that life is worth living? Are you impying suffering is a bad thing now? Uh-oh, sounds like somebody's going to be doing some back paddling.

"If anything, that's extremely selfish." This from the girl who said life is pointless. Who are you to imply that anything is selfish? Can you see into the motivation for why I said what I said? Do your agendas ever cloud your perceptions? Who made you the moral police? Why should anyone make you their moral foundation on which to build ideas regarding right and wrong?

wow i didnt read this part.
yes life is worth living, dont have to explain my logic and belifs to you becuase i have tried, and clearly you are too much into your religion and in that tunnel vision to even try and understand where im comming from.
i never asked anyone to take my thoughts on differnt things to heart or to apply them to their life. because seoiursly if they do that thats pathetic on their part, becuase clearly they are too stupid to come up with their own damn belifs/ideas on life/morals/values/etc.
enough said.

Well, you do ask really good questions. What can I say?

Clearly I am too much into my religion. We've been over this before. 2 ways to deal with it. Here is one of your default statements you throw out when you know you have nothing effective to counter with. Secondly, I could say you clasp too tightly to your dogma to consider what I've brought to the table. As far as what you perceive to be my understanding, this also is trite. I've told you before and given you references as to how I've put much independent study into this subject. You rely on your pre-chewed, unresearched mantras.

"I never asked anyone to take my thoughts on different things to heart or apply them to their life." Excellent try at another slight of hand excuse. But you that doesn't work here. This is what's referred to as passive-aggressive. By you going off the handle and name calling (pathetic, stupid) and cussing and stating things like absolute truth and Christianity is wrong, painting the pro-life argument in a bad light, you are de facto stating these things are bad. Then you follow up with painting your dogma in the positive light. Just b/c you don't say it directly, doesn't mean you aren't doing it. Your contradicting statements cancel each other out in one paragraph. Well done.

lol thank you for the huge form :) i aprreciate the fact that it was mostly dedicated to me.

oh yeah the spawn of saitan question :P it was a joke. obvioulsy. theres no such thing as hell or saitan for that matter, i just think its a poor excuse when people dont want to own up to their mistakes.

i have nothing against handicapped/mentaly disabled/etc. people. my friend is in a wheel chair, unfortuantly. becuase of her cancer. and i dont treat her with any disrespect of any kind. i treat her like a person becuase she is.
also those kind of people actualy have a better sence of humor unlike any others.

also when someone is raped, it is ussualy unexpectedly. are you saying that lets say a 15 year old gets raped, impregnanted, and dosent want the baby and cant support it in any which way and wouldnt be able to handle the fact of giving it up ( i know giving away children can be extremly hard for moms) your saying that abortion wouldnt be the answer ? and shouldnt be relevant in that situation ?

yes there are many good things in this world, however with the negative getting worse and worse, i wouldnt want a child to be living in this kind of environment. where evil is takeing over the good. (sounds kinda hokey but whatever)

the neverous system not beeing developed... well.. there actualy have been studies, tests, and has been proven if parts of the nervous system such as the feeling of pain is cut out of the neverous system. we cannot feel that. there are such diseases where people cant feel pain. because that part of the nervous system hasnt been devoloped. the nervous system makes us feel. without it we cannot feel/think/ or even move.

you talk about how i say why would you want to place my oppinions have any bearing on any one else ?

i could totaly fire that back to you, why would you want your bible yeeweh god thing have any effect on any one else? when there are many differnt belifs and religions out there ?

yes the more people there are, the more we damaage and hurt this world along with the animals. the less people the better.

LOL a fictous mother nature.
your telling me when you look out your window you dont see trees, grass, birds, bugs, soil, water, any of that ? you dont see a sky ? you dont see the moon or stars or even the sun ?
all of that is apart of nature, we are apart of nature and most importantly we belong to a very important thing, called the universe.
however if you subsitute the word nature for the word god it is generaly the same thing.

oh yeah and actulay all these questions werent directed to you, but they were directed to the person who started the forum. i only posted it to your questions to add on my questions. but thats fine if you felt the need to attack me for my personal oppinons. thats your proagative.

in general, children are not a nessesity in life. yes they are our future. yes thats fine if people do give birth but im not saying every woman on this earth HAS to have a child. everday i see women who shouldnt have children and what i mean by this is they dont know how to parent them, they give 3 year olds chocoalte and pop drinks, they swear at them, they cant support them, etc. clearly there is a very VERY huge message many toy companies and even in the media that try to convince girls at a younge age that we have to get married, have babies and call it a day. and what im saying is that, that sort of lifestyle is NOT an essential. We do not have to have children, we do not have to get marired, we do not have to stay at home and try and portray the "perfect normal life" like many in the media and society even tries to accomplish. because in reality we are not perfect. we are not meant to have billions upon billions of people on this earth. we are suppose to respect the earth and all it has to offer us.

No such thing as Hell or Satan, huh? Your statement here assumes you have infinite knowledge in this area or in general. So tell me how a finite creature is capable of such a feat.

So you have nothing against handicapped people? But would you advocate for the killing of a handicapped baby b/c his/her quality of life wouldn't be the same as a "normal" person's, right? Or advocate euthanising the handicapped b/c they can be a burden to their families or the system? By why care about how you treat anyone if everything is pointless? I mean, after all, we're all dying anyway, right?

The 15-year-old scenario is still short-sighted. Again, glad I know Yahweh and His habit of making lemonade out of lemons. I loved how you threw in the caveat "and wouldn't be able to handle the fact of giving it up." So killing the baby is a beter option? No selfishness there. Why make the baby pay with its life for something that wasn't its fault? The rape victim can't take her frustration out on the crminal, so she uses the innocent as a proxy. Great idea. But, yep, I'm saying murdering an innocent party isn't relevant or the solution to the problem. That would be like you killing your mom for something your sister did. Makes sense.

Nervous system. You are citing scenarios about fully developed nervous systems, as noted by your "we cannot feel that" statement. Issue about "diseases" where people can't feel pain is null and void here too. Still references fully developed nervous systems. Finally, pregnancy is not a disease, nor is growing. You draw lines between completely unrelated issues.

So why is Yahweh relevant in a world that thinks personal non-belief makes an issue mooot? Good validity question. Stressing, though, that your question does make the implication that mere disbelief in a concept discredits it altogether. Recall my gravity illustration. This is multi-faceted. And we've been through it before. The Bible has withstood all tests regarding its truthfulness, is an accurate account of histroy (Dead Sea Scrolls), and makes accurate predictions. Again, once an individual actually takes the time to do an independent study of the claims of the Bible instead of just parroting unresearched, popular social mantras, they find it to be a reliable set of texts.

Continuing on.

More people = more damage. But what of all the good people do for the planet? If there were no humans, then who would be available to reason with the animals to stop killing each other so they can all become vegans?

Ficticious mother nature? Yes. Ficticious nature? No. It's one thing to acknowledge natural processes, quite another to assign identities to those unthinking, unfeeling processes. So are the words nature and God interchangeable? Again, can't substitute unthinking/unfeeling processes with individuals. You're blending lines again.

I agree it's not a life necessity for an individual to spawn offspring. You're right in dividing this issue and the one regarding necessity of the majority of a species procreating to ward off extinction.

But who are you to say anyone shouldn't have kids? Who made you the moral police? I thought you said everything was pointless anyway. Why are you judging someone else, based on your limited human perceptions? Did you have the whole story before you passed your judgment on these parents?

Nobody said everyone had to be pigeon holed into the "nuclear family" option. If you had read the Bible, you would know it acknowledges that. However, it does give guidelines for how one is to behave if they want to have intimate relations, children, families, etc.

"In reality we are not perfect." I'm glad you realize that. However, that doesn't give us an excuse to just chuck rules out the door.

I agree this earth can only hold so many people. That's one of the reasons why death can be a blessing. I also agree we are to be good stewards of the earth and nature. But that doesn't mean we elevate unthinking processes to the status of rights bearers.

take your head out of your ass seroiusly.
A child at 15, CANNOT phyicialy handel having the birth of a child!
their body is not matured, and they are still themselves going through puberty. How is that right to even suggest them having a child when the situation could be avoided by abortion?
There is no way and i mean no way in hell id ever have a child at my age, becuase first of all theres no way i could support it, secondly i wouldnt want it to go trhough adoption becuase not only does it bring pain to the mother it brings pain and confusion to the child and i have seen this with my own eyes. Also i would never have a baby becuase i dont want something like that to ruwin my life and make me prone to living on welfare in a very poor environment and housing complex.

im not at all going to sugar coat this for you, you always come across that your belif is supprior and that its the right way or no way.
Its NOT the right way. WE DONT KNOW whats out there. So you have no right yourself to force your belif system onto another person , like myself all the time. ATLEAST i can look past my belifs and try to understand where people are comming from. i understand where your comming from becuase you dont know any better from your belif system. just like the majority of the population becuase thats all they have besides material objects and the people in their life. thats all they have to carry them day by day.
and i understand that. I can actulay open my heart to that idea and try and understand where people are comming from and try to put myself in their shoes.
it has helped me understand people more. which im glad im able to do.

everything living thing has energy. and what a living thing is, is a person, animal, nature, a bug, it all has energy. EVERYTHING on this world has energy also the universe and planets have its own energy. I have actualy reserched this. also if the planets and stars and sun all alighn the energy of them effects each planets, which would result to major natural disasters, and most of all a huge shift in energy. i know this becuase i months of resarch.

you may say " oh your reaserch came from some person that blahblahblahbha"
no i knnow everything has energy and energy effects one anohter from personal experiences, and even you can experience it. you can feel somebodys energy, such as if somebodys angry, if somebodys happy, if somebodys sad etc. emotions effect our energy. anyways im going to stop with this scientific stuff and move right along.


... if i would have read the bible i would understand that we dont have to be a "nuclear family"... i figured that out on my own . i dont need some ancient book non-relevent to my belifs what so ever to tell me how to live my life and how to think.

i have a few questions for you and i dont want these to be answered from your bible or from "evidence" long ago but from personal feelings and thoughts and how you actualy truly feel about these without the bible. it may be hard to answer beucase i understnad how apart of it is to you. but try and put that aside.

how do you know that all religions/belifs are even right? and as in right i mean, apply to life and the "real world"? ( as in real world, i dont mean soceity i mean in nature)

if somebody told you and actulay proved it that religion wasnt real and was a total fake what would you do ?



also you going on and on about your religion to me isnt going to change my thoughts if thats what your intnetions are.
its yourself that you have to prove to. not me.

Why do you assume I'm forcing a "belief" on you? If reason solely was rooted in humans, then surely your argument would have footing in thes area. But, alas, reason does not change from person to person. Again, you are tangled in your relativism. You can try all you want to use my debate style against me. But the sticking point for you is my arguments are not rooted in my personal opinions. So the scales are not even.

You try to understand where people are coming from. Oh, really? How much independent study have you put in to worldviews that contrast with yours? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Your perception that I don't know any better. Ick. That default statement, "Oh, if the Christian would only just think about it..." tanks every time. Why are you still using it? Again, I've done independent studies on all the major worldviews. At the end of my research, Christianity was the one that held water. Now, whether you like that or not is a separate issue. "That's all they have to carry them day by day." Ugh. Can't you come up w/anything better than the pre-chewed "religion as a crutch" default statement? Recall our discussion about Ceslaw Milosz and his works on "succor for suckers".

"I can actually open my heart...and try and understand where people are coming from..." Ah, the implication here is that those who adhere to conservative values/worldviews cannot open their hearts and be udnerstanding. You're alos saying that you're "open minded" enough to grocerty shop other views, picking and choosing what works for you. Except in the end, you end up w/a watered down version of the Saroin420 that you started with. Everything is fluid; there are no boundaries. Except now your morality lines are constantly shifting and things are confusing. This is anarchy-lite which leaves the door opened wide for its big brother to come in.

im gonna make the short and sweet.
stop trying to make it sound like your religion is so much supporior and greater than everyone else's belifs.
and stop putting down what i belive in becuase unlike many people im very intuned with the universe and with everything arround me. my belif system works for me and thats all that matters, and im sure yours is what works for you so thats all that matters.

Again, if right and wrong was actually different for every individual, then your argument here might actually stand a chance. Coincidentally, if what you've stated here was true, then, why are you trying to get me to "stop trying to make it sound like your religion is so much superior and greater than everyone else's beliefs".? I mean, hey, if every individual does what works for him/her, then what's your problem? I'm doing what works for me, and you can't insinuate what I'm doing is wrong. And you can't be mad because there's no wrong committed to be mad at. Your definition of wrong doesn't make a difference to anyone else, relatively speaking.

So ultimately, Saroin420, what does one do when two completely opposite worldviews bump up against each other? What of your relativism then? Can two opposites both be true at the same time?

overall, nobody truly knows what the actual truth is.
so really who knows whats right and wrong.

Cop out statements. Because of your limited human perceptions, you can't say for certain what somebody else knows. This is a way for you to get some wiggle room on the issue. Because if you can say, "nobody knows", then it leaves you the ability to say, "because nobody knows, then nobody can tell me any of my actions are wrong and may warrant punishment".

for christ sake misscherie, stop assumeing and read what i said and take it literealy.
you always come up with the most off the wall situations from what other people say to you.
and yes nobody does know the truth
you dont know if there is a god. you dotn know if religion or any sort of those belifs are actualy true.

Off the wall to you, Saroin420. You assume that I assume.

I don't come at relativism/fundamentalism in the general way, and it throws you and other skeptics off your footing. You don't like it because it wins the debates, so you grasp at straws, using the same tired and worn out default statements.

"And yes nobody knows the truth." Again, how can you, a finite person with limited perceptions, make an infinite statement such as that and "assume" what others know and do not know? Basically what the real issue is you simply don't like what I've brought to the table; and because I've shot down all your other arguments, you default to this one that doesn't do any good. It just makes you feel better. But we know that not everything that makes us feel good is actually good for us.

.... "i dont like what youve brought to the table" ....
lol um really ?
well.. to be honest im not sure what else to say to you because ive tried. and clearly it goes out one ear and out the other.. and in this case through one eye and out the other .
thats great if you feel as if you "won" the argument.
a round of drinks to the lucky lady!